Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Tea with Br I'm trying to live my life I just need space to grow I'm just trying to make it right these people won't let me go I'm just trying to live my life I just need space to grow I'm just trying to make it right these people won't let me go Let me grow, let me go, let me grow, let me go they should know, they should know they should know, they should know I'm just trying to live my life I just need space to grow I'm just trying to make it right if you won't let me go.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Welcome to the Tea With Bri. I'm your host, Bri. Thanks for listening. The Tea with Bri podcast is focused on deep, honest and vulnerable conversation.
Each week I sit down with a different guest in order to have those conversations.
Every week, we'll start my guest's bio, an intro to how we know each other, and then we'll go into a deep dive conversation about whatever topic they brought to me that week. This week, I'm joined by my guest, Jam Mapp. Jam is a poet, painter, gardener, and writer. Her love for the arts is inspired by music of all kinds, and having a creative writing background motivates her to help others to find their voice and share their stories.
The Eve on is her passion project of preaching communities through nature and expression, especially by way of authenticity. She encourages others to free themselves and embrace the dualities of their own healing journeys. Jim can be found in her local greenhouse making herbal medicine while listening to heavy metal and hanging out with her cats.
[00:01:41] Speaker C: Hello.
Hi. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited to have you.
This is like a very special moment because we have never met. This is just like our first little chat.
[00:01:53] Speaker C: And I was like, oh, first Kiki.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm like, I'm thrilled to. To chat. I guess my, my first question is, how'd you find me? Because I. For background, I'm like, I just put my show out there. I don't know if people find me.
[00:02:08] Speaker C: So you were on my for you page.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: That's so funny.
[00:02:12] Speaker C: You were. And I could have sworn. And then I started following you because I was like, well, let me listen to what she got going on. And. And then I saw that you had, you know, kind of maybe not open call, but you were taking on other guests at the time. So I thought to reach out, I was like, I got some stuff to say. Yes, Might as well. Might as well. It is.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: It is an open forum. I love, like, I think I've only had about 10 or 15 people who have been like true Internet strangers. That was like, yeah, sure, come on, if you found me, you have something to talk about, let's just chat about it. So I am thrilled, I am thrilled, especially your topic. I was like, oh, we're about to just dive in because we have things to discuss. And as you have guessed from like my online Persona, I'm all about like honesty and vulnerability and just like cutting quick to it. Like life is too short. Let's just like jump in, talk about, talk about life. So you said you'd want to talk about the nuances of honesty and specifically how honesty impacts revival needs, especially in queer bipoc folks and like how liberating the truth can be. And I was like, this is going to be good. So like first, like, what made you pick this topic?
[00:03:32] Speaker C: In my own life, I've had, especially recently, just been working with my own concept of what honesty is and what honesty isn't because it's very debatable of what honesty isn't.
And so I just wanted to just have an opportunity to just talk about why the differences or our definitions of honesty usually create a lot of conflict or stop us from having opportunity to repair things.
And so yeah, you know, I, I was going through my own stuff, my own interpersonal relationships. I've gone through regular breakup, friend breakup, job breakup, and it's all because I had something to say and I felt like there were definitely times where I definitely could have said things differently, but I had to say what I had to say and I said what I said.
So I just wanted to crack open this not so mystery of why honesty. We know the phrase that the truth hurts. But like, I do think that in just some of my own commentary and just talking to other people in my life and sometimes it's been questions like, oh well you, that's fine, you kept it real, but why'd you say it like that? Or oof, maybe you said too much or you know, you didn't say enough. And so it's just like, well damn. So it's just like the idea of being able to break off pieces of honesty versus give the full blown thing and empty the clip.
I wonder what makes us need to differentiate that from moment to moment. So I'm like, let's, let's get to that.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: You are walking down my street. Yeah, I was just going through this recently because I just left a job because I feel, I'm always like, I feel like the canary in the Coal mine often when it comes to honesty and saying the thing that needs to be said.
And so I was working at an organization that was like, yeah, like, we pride ourselves on, like, our DEI initiatives and, like, making sure every voice is heard and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, but y' all also have, like, a hive mind. And I don't think they really interpreted that until I came in. Of, like, it's, like, one thing to say it, but to actually put it in action is completely different.
[00:06:14] Speaker C: Right.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: And so to call out everybody on the team of, like, hi. Like, I'm the only one woman of color director here. You know, our top. The two top executives at our organization were both men. One was a man of color.
But to be a woman of color in a position of leadership at this organization and hold so much about, like, representation and what we do and like, who we work with and all these, like, these things. And then just watch, like, even still, the white supremacy practices seep into all of our conversations and, you know, the intention versus impact conversation of, like, well, we, you know, we. We pride ourselves on being honest. I'm like, but do you. Because when I call you, call you in or call you out or however you want to frame it, you sit here and act like I'm the villain, especially as a black queer woman, being like, yeah, no, like, I hold plenty of intersectionalities, and I can hold the duality of, like, being honest and being rude. Like, I, you know, I think it is in the delivery, but almost like, if we're trying to get to, like, the serious parts. Well, I don't think I need to worry about being nice or understood or, like, all these things. Like, I let that go a long time ago, but it was even still to, like, watch how they were like, well, you know, sometimes you deliver it. Like, you would never say that to a white man ever in your life.
[00:07:33] Speaker C: Literally.
Speak on it.
[00:07:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So how are you going to sit here and try to, like, tone police me? Because what I'm saying is the same thing that he could say, but because of, you know, who I am and how I look and how I identify. Now I'm the problem because I don't want to just, like, grin and parrot. Like, no, I'm going to do the thing I was put here to do. I'm like, if you don't like it, I'll leave. Like, I just.
And they got Max. I was like, I literally left because of one of my bosses. I'm like, well, I'm not going to sit here Me being here means I subscribe to what you're doing, and I don't like. All I have is my word and, you know, my personal, like, mission, vision, values, and brand. And I can't align myself with someone who told me one thing and then went and did another. Because you thought that by saying it, you were being honest, but actually you were inadvertently lying or maybe truthfully lying, but you just wanted yourself to feel better.
[00:08:26] Speaker C: Unfortunately, it's usually truthfully lying. And I'm gonna clock a few things you said, because I. Yeah, I being.
I've worked in a lot of jobs where I am the only black person in the room, let alone black person. Also black queer person.
And very similar thing happened to me. I literally had a supervisor tell me that my tone. She didn't like my tone. And I was like, can you give me an example of that? And she's like, well, right now you're just being defensive. And I'm like, how? Because I'm asking you to showcase the behavior that is making you feel the type of way. Same thing. Like, I. You know. Cause that's a whole other thing. But nonetheless, I think in public, facing spaces, whether you work for. Whether you're working in the world or you're doing community work, intentionality is mostly recognized through voice. It's expressed through word. And we don't really know. People could say anything. And I think that's what makes honesty a little translucent, because people could say whatever they want, want, and we can only take their word for it. And a lot of the time, people will say anything. Like, oh, yeah, we. We're super invested in the dei. Oh, I'm super accountable. Or I'm really always there for my friends. You could say that.
And I know that there is a.
And the saying that actions speak louder than words, I kind of. I think that's true. But I also feel like words and actions are synonymous, because you could definitely. I don't know about you, but energy doesn't lie. I could feel when somebody's being dishonest, it's in my body.
[00:10:14] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:10:15] Speaker C: And even when you're being dishonest, even if you don't mean to lie to someone, you could feel that in your body even before you say it. You know, you might feel a little choked up. You know, that's your throat chakra, you know, trying to. Or you might feel a little like, in some cases, people feel nauseous or they feel nervous when they know they have to tell a fib or a lie, or they get that really Cringy, embarrassing.
We can feel dishonesty. Usually it's our choice to not address it in real time because we are taking people's word for it. We are trying to, you know, well, they said this, so I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt. And you know, so it's two ways to me. And I think we are in a time right now. We have always been in a time as black women, just constantly observing so much craziness, but especially just with the social climate of the times we're in right now where everybody claims to be allies or claims to take part of something or claims to have these certain values. When we see how people only do it because it's trendy or they want to be acceptable or just like that term you use, hive mindset or hive mentality. How it's so easy to hide behind dishonesty, basically be fake. It's easy to be fake.
And I'm gonna be real with you. It's ironic. I found you through social media and I think this is, this is the true point of social media is connecting to other folks.
But it is another landscape to be fake and absorb fake, any kind. And so I think we have a very interesting relationship with honesty in the Western world because we have so much literally at our fingertips in the palm of our hand dissuading us to live in our truth. And you would think like, you know, we are in 2025. This is a lot of time where it is. Yeah. Live your. Live in your truth. Say what you want to say. Live authentically. But then we see the dichotomy of some people can't do that right now. And we see that and our, you know, our trans family, that a lot of them, you know, just living their truth and existing, not even saying a word. It's, it's that waking up, being honest and choosing every day to love themselves and find community. How dangerous that's becoming for them because just their mere existence is being targeted. And it's a very scary feeling. So for some people, you know, that's why I said like, how do we wager the need to be dishonest for our own self safety versus need to be authentic? And it's tricky because going back to work and I know I'm going all over the place, but just an example, just an example.
I don't tell people, like my name. I have a government, right? My government is Jade. I go by Jam. That's my artist name. People don't need to know that, right? Yeah, I Got a lot of co workers. Especially again, when it's nothing but white folk at my job, just like, oh, so what do you do? Or do you want to know? I don't need, I don't. You don't need to know me like that.
And that to me is a form of, you know, I'm not being dishonest out of malice. I'm not withholding the truth to be rude, but I'm protecting myself. I don't know you like that. So.
And I, what I. My community building outside of this space is precious to me. And I don't need, you know, unless you supporting it or pulling up genuinely, I don't need your nose in my business.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:48] Speaker C: So I think especially black people, we have been used to have to overly self censor what we want to be honest about because it could cost us something.
And I just, I wanted to talk about when it's okay to maybe not be 100% honest. Because if you're not 100% honest, I know some people will call that as lying. They'll say, oh, you didn't tell the truth. Well, let's, I think learning how to filter out what truths are meant to be protected and what truths we have no choice but to live in unapologetically. I feel like queer black people have to do that every single day.
And that's why I wanted to go. Like, when it does hit you at both times of being, you have to decide who you're going to be when you are the only queer person or especially black person in the space where nobody around is like you and you're easily misjudged or misrepresented. You do have to decide what kind of honesty to use to help you survive that place. And so, you know, I'm not a fan of lying to get by, but I do know there's some levels of honesty that not everybody deserves of you.
And if you, you know, so I just, I hate that you went through that at your job because I know exactly how it's like. And you beat yourself up at the end of it and go, damn, well, maybe I should have said this instead. Or maybe I shouldn't have said all like, you are constantly going back to your own voice and your own, your own intentionality. And that's what, you know, it makes you feel like, dang, like, did I do the wrong thing? And, you know, constantly, it's, it's what it was meant for us to. They want, they want us to, you know, keep us down by constantly questioning ourselves. And whether we were worth this experience flopping or flying, you know, so, yeah, I'm sorry you went through that at your job, but I am, I hope you still are emancipated either way.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: No, but a billion. Everything you just said. And I was taking notes too about this because I pride myself a lot as a person who's online about being honest and upfront and vulnerable and all the things. And so I was listening to you talk about when your safety is called into question. And I think that's why I know I sit in a place of privilege, of being a director level person and being educated, all these different things of I get to show as a person who can show up authentically and create space and take up space for folks who maybe can't do that. Especially like, as a black woman, as a queer person and just being kind of like, this is who I am. And like, I'll tell jobs during interviews, like, I may have a partner who is not a CIS hetero man. Or I could, you know, you know, like, I've dated partners who are trans and I've dated women. And so it's been really interesting too. I'm going through like a. As a person who's like, I came out to my family when I was 26, and I've, like, been doing this work of honesty from a deeply religious family of like, hi, like, I am queer. We need to all get on the same page about who I may or may not bring home. Or we need to like, have a conversation of, like, what does that mean for you? And like, our level of honesty.
Because I'm like, I'm not, I'm not about to bring a partner home and we're not about to cause harm to this person because we haven't unpacked our own things. Because that's my job as the person who, who has own, like, air quotes, ownership of this family in this moment.
And like, having partners who aren't out yet too, of like, well, as a person who is very out, what does that look like? What's the nuance there? How do we have that conversation and navigate these things when we're, you know, near friends and family who maybe don't know we're out in the world. And you're like, you know, there's just like this different, like, you're saying different levels of honesty as it surrounds safety.
And, you know, at this job where I was in charge, we had four black people out of like 20 employees.
And I felt such ownership as the only director who was Black to be the person who was like, I will fall on the sword and be the one who says the thing. Because if I get fired, I can go. I work in fundraising. I will go find another job. These rest of the people aren't going to. May not be as flexible as I am of, like, I will leave and find something else or I'll go back to consulting. Right?
And the amount of times that I had to just be like, I. I'm gonna. I'm gonna speak up here as the black director and, like, use that card and raise that flag of like, no, we're not gonna just act like, there's no voices here. Or when they would leave us out of meetings, we'd have full. We would have. They'd have meetings for staff of, like, different groups that they would be talking with, and there would be, like, no black person in that meeting. I'm like, how are you as an organization working in a predominantly black city, not centering black voices at this organization and, like, having that call in with them? And so there's like, a lot of different things that we often had to navigate because I was like, this is not. Thank you, honey.
We are not about to do this and cause harm to people.
And knowing that, like, as one of the most outward facing people who is black, who grew up here, you're not about to, like, signal to the community. Like, I've allowed this harm as well. Like, there's just a lot of ownership and honesty that I take that. I think a lot of, like, my counterparts, specifically white people, specifically white women, don't have to navigate and being like, hi, like, your tears mean nothing to me. Like, talk to your therapist or your friends. Like, and having to respond like you were just saying, we're not friends. I'm here to do a work. I'm here to do a job. I would be like, I'm not here to make friends. I don't need to be liked or understood. I'm here to respect you. You're going to respect me. We're going to do our jobs and leave. Like, there is no. The whole, like, we're a family. No, we're not. I have one of those at home. Like, we're not friends. I have plenty of those outside of here. I'm here to do my job, get a paycheck, you know, move this company along, help them grow. But, like, that whole, like, like we were saying the hive mind mentality that I think is used to sort of strip you of your. Your humanity and your ability to, like, call things out and just being like, no. And yeah. So everything you're saying is like, like, you're saying, like, the moments of like, when to be honest and when to be upfront and, you know, again, as a person who's been like a grassroots organizer and a social justice person, of like, knowing that, like, as a black queer woman who is cisgender, knowing that, like, the levels of safety I have that like, my trans counterparts don't, like, you know, the folks in my community of like, well, I will go and say something or I'll stand up for this and, and name that. Of like, I'm. I can never speak to a trans person's experience, but they're not here. And I feel as a person who is an allied, is my job to. To stand up and say something? Because there's just nothing here. Like, there's plenty of times that some stuff went down at work and I was like, since we have no trans people on staff, unless we can like, find someone who can just like, give and like, obviously, like, we're. No one's a monolith. Right?
[00:21:00] Speaker C: Right.
[00:21:00] Speaker B: But being like, hey, like, unless we're gonna like, call them to a table to have a conversation with them, like, actually be inclusive and actually be inclusive and, you know, reach out to our community and have questions and we're taught and like, I'm like, and I, I want, I don't want just a tr. I don't want a trans. Like, I want different types of trans people. Right? Like, I'm not talking about like just a white trans person. Like, I want, you know, the, the whole monolith and I mean the whole collective of people who can have different experiences, even if their trans experiences, you know, that's the only thing they have in comm. Being trans. Right. Because even then that's going to be different.
But saying of like, we can't tout ourselves as like, like you're saying the DEI stuff. Like, you can't tout yourself of being inclusive in all these things and being, you know, open to feedback and then not doing it. So there's also that level of honesty too, that I think I've really worked on in my life of like, doing the self work of am I being honest? Am I showing up honestly?
And what does my honesty mean? And what, what am I using it for? And I'm always like, I tell people all the time, I have no secrets because I'm like, there, I. There's, there's. If I have a thing to say, I'm gonna say It. So I have no secrets as a person who was online and, you know, is building a community there, who touts herself as, like, being honest and vulnerable and upfront and just being like, this is not the highlight reel. Like, you may look at my life and think it's perfect, but it's not. I'm like, there. Which is, like, why I do a lot of my writing of, like, this is what I'm dealing with. Of, like, a reminder that, like, ain't sweet and people just see what they see.
But thinking about that too, of, like, the level of fakeness that I see about, you know, content creators who I know personally who will be like, oh, our relationship is perfect. And then behind the scenes, I know what's actually happening in a relationship. I'm like, how do you sit online and lie like that? And I just will never understand that because, like, that's just, like, not the experience I'm ever gonna have.
[00:22:54] Speaker C: So, yeah, I mean, I think it's too. It's twofold. I feel like dishonesty occurs through ego, of course, and ego. I say ego. Ego, to me, is not a bad word at all, but through ego, because it's how we want the world to perceive us versus actually what is going on. And then the other way that dishonesty occurs is when there's an imbalance in expectations.
And so that's. That's. That's a human problem. Right? So dishonesty happens when expectations are thrown off and.
Or we don't know them. Right. We don't know how to hold expectations properly. And that happens so much when you are the only black person in the room. I'm going, I'm bringing it back to these jobs. Because again, you notice there is this culture of when non black people want so much proximity to blackness, and they come in saying that they have the thinking that they have good intentions, that they want to care for us, they want to advocate for us, but the, like, our expectations of that. First of all, it sounds like you and I have been through enough of that type of circus to not fall for the envy oak. But they don't know that, right? So they're expecting us to show up a certain way or to, in some cases, get out of the way.
You know, they may not say it to our face directly at times. Sometimes they do. But there is this.
I would love to come back and edit this in somehow, because I don't want to take your credit for it, but there is this beautiful black woman. I think she does sociology. She speaks a lot and so she coined the term pet to threat.
When you are the only black person. When you are the only black person, especially in corporate spaces, doesn't matter if it's non profit or not, but when you are the only black person or one of the few, you are a pet until you are a threat. Meaning when you come in, you get hired, everything's nice and sweet, they expect you to, you know, behave a certain way, they expect you to own a certain mannerism that they don't even know you as a full person. But because you're black and oh, you know, and, and because you black, you know, they can check the box off of the diversity card and shit. So it's, so, it's like, so they, they, they already have this expectation of you that is completely false in most cases.
And then when you have to clap back or stand up for yourself or just honestly correct something, because not all the time, I don't believe it's a race situation all the time, but it usually is. And so when it's not a race, it's like I'm still, I'm a, I'm a worker. Yes, I'm a, as a black person, I come with these experiences, I come with these sentiments, I come with these different types of mission that are core to my values. But I'm also a person that, you know, I'm a part of this, you know, to help. I'm here because I care about this work. But the moment you step differently, you threaten them.
And now your expectations of yourself changes and it's very jarring and it becomes very isolating. And that's what it's meant to do because it's meant to turn to you, on yourself and be like, damn, who am I supposed to be? I could either keep it real, be inauthentic, unapologetic, but that's going to ruffle feathers and ruffle feathers. Then it's going to be hostile environments. Hostile environment might cost me my bag. It cost me my bag. Then I'm all fucked up. And so it's like, it's meant to make you look inwardly at your what your own truth, you know, is gonna cost you.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Yeah, they want to silence you because if you are, you're busy focusing on yourself, you can't, then you can't focus on like the harm they're causing you. Right. Like you get. So it's a distraction tactic.
[00:27:09] Speaker C: Exactly, exactly.
[00:27:11] Speaker B: I need to go like find that pet to threat because that is like the, I've never, it's, it's It's a whole channel. It's so. That's so succinct about what it literally happens of like, as long as you're quote, playing the game and like quote, staying in your lane and doing everything you're like quote, supposed to do, you're fine, you're good. And you know, our topic wasn't work, but it just. That's. I think that's like the perfect example of what this like really shows up as is like that's what happened at this last job. I was, I was good with my boss until I called him out on something and he'd like try to buck at me. And I was like, no, you're wrong. And I know you're not used to people telling you you're wrong, but you're wrong. You did not tell. You had an unrealistic expectation because you had a failure to communicate on your part and you wanted me to just read your mind while I'm like, I'm human.
So to my knowledge, no one can do that.
And like it was in the minute. I was just like, no. And he was like, he literally was taken aback. Like the slack messages I got. And I was like, sir, be serious. It's the weekend. Like all these things that have like. And also like, don't let you set a boundary of like, I work nine to five, I do not work weekends unless there's an event and there's something we've pre talked about, but I'm not out here reading.
And I would be like, my slack messages are off after 5 o' clock and they do not turn back on until 9:30 because I need a minute to get into work. Like the. They also, they this the idea that you should always be working, that you should always be available. I'm like, you pay me for 40 hours a week. You could decide how you get those 40, but you're not getting more than 40, period. And like your salary, I'm like, yeah, but salary is still 40 hours like that. That especially like in the nonprofit space. And then they expect you to like fall on your story. Like it's such a privilege to like work 80 hours for the same. I'm like, no, I. I do my job, I do what I'm supposed to do. But that like that. That is the perfect. I was a. The pet to threat is just so freaking real.
[00:28:57] Speaker C: Please, please YouTube it. And there is a collective of wonderful, beautiful, scholarly, non scholarly black women who are sharing their stories like this and have been through their own pet to threat experiences. And they have they have their own kind of talks of how to help black women heal after harm in these spaces. So please check it out. I'm so sorry for this podcast. I don't have the info, but hopefully I will.
[00:29:20] Speaker B: I will put it in the show notes. I will find info in the show notes for sure.
[00:29:23] Speaker C: Because I will figure it out for that. Because it's absolutely going back to just the level of honesty is just like, especially, you know, we bring up childhood and there's so much embedded in black children to learn how to hide parts of themselves to survive and whether it's their physical body. If you're, you know, born a girl, you know, if you're a black boy, you're a target just on site. Like, there's so many parts of our identity we have to like, cut off so early or have to like, hyper focus on to make sure we don't do or say or appear incorrectly, you know.
You know, like the fact that we are taught early to make up shit just to get through a traffic stop, you know, like. Or we, you know, the way it's. And I don't blame our parents and ancestors for doing that. They were just trying to help us get through. But the fact that we already are honest, we're. It's already kind of skewed that it's okay to lie a little bit if it means we get to go home to our family. You know, it's okay to not tell this person exactly where it's going. Like, those are things. And that's not saying, like, we're raising a culture of liars. But no, you have to learn certain spaces where your truth needs to be protected. Like the. How you show up in the world. Not everybody is entitled to all of you.
[00:30:48] Speaker B: And like, well, that's what you're saying. Like the surv. Like you need to survive. It is pure survival that you have to lie to get by.
[00:30:55] Speaker C: Yeah. And then you, you know, take that on as an adult. And then outside of work and outside of work, toxic workspaces and white peopleisms, we. It kind of seeps into our relationships sometimes.
Like, sometimes in our personal relationships, that happens too. You know, especially if you come from a background where your family didn't have the most money or you didn't have certain resources and you know, if you've ever wanted to fit in or you wanted to, you know it. Because dishonesty is physical too. Right. Like, so it's just kind of like these same people who, you know, maybe in middle school, high school wanted like the Latest shoes or fashion. And they probably, you know, spent every single thing they had or they use all their lunch money to get whatever the case to just to stunt or show like, oh, this is who I am. Probably don't even care for real about the. What you bought, but you want to fit in. And, you know, it's kind of like the same people who will get up on here and be like, oh, I have the best lover or girlfriend in the world. And the whole time you lying. Like, because at home it's all dysfunctional and the bag is messed up or whatever. Like, it. It's kind of saturated in everyday things. Sometimes to pretend, because that's when I think dishonesty is harmful. When we have to pretend and we don't have to. Right? When we choose to pretend and don't have to is when it becomes harmful. And you had to do a little fib or say a little lie so you could protect your. Your stuff. That's one thing.
Okay, I think we all collectively can be like, all right, you got to do what you got to do, right? But when you are putting on a front to where each lie requires another one, that's when it gets messed up.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: It wasn't until you. You saying at the beginning of, like, you found me on social media and we should, like, be using it to, like, actually build, like, real community.
It wasn't until I met. I met a friend online first, and then we became, like, in real life friends.
Another black queer creative.
And the first time we met, we hung out for a couple of hours. It was me, her, and another friend.
And she looked at both of us and she said, it is so refreshing to meet people who are the same person they appear to be online.
And I was like, ooh, tell me more. She's like, oh, I've, like, DMED people and we've had a really great conversation.
I take in their content and then I meet them in person and they are like, not what they are selling. And I'm like, who has time to, like, be dishonest and, like, do all these things? And, like, you're saying for nothing, like, there's no reason that you need to be on this platform doing these things.
And I. And I just. I think that, like, that's like my sociology brains, like, that should be a study as to why people do that or, like, what thing are you trying to heal from your. From your childhood trauma of, like, you have to show up even inauthentically in a space you've created, right? That. That is so Wild to me as a person. I'm like, I can't. I could never. And I. And I often. I talk about it all the time online. I'm like, I get the Internet as the highlight reels me. This is why I share when crap, like, hits the fan. Because I'm like, I is not perfect. I'm truly trying, like everybody else is, to, like, figure it out as I go. Like, they say, like, this is my first time living this life. Right.
And so that sits with me, too. Of like, go ahead, Go ahead.
[00:34:14] Speaker C: Okay. Because I. I get it. I get the very human side of. Of that. And that's why I mentioned ego first. Because our ego is really that part of our cognition that wants us to be this version of ourselves that some is included, you know, with a little armor. Sure. But then some is.
I feel like your ego exists to soften the blow of really, really harsh truths that we are not ready to live in.
And I feel like your ego is like, you could be somebody who.
Like. Because my biggest thing is I'll use myself. I have always struggled to ask for help.
Right. That's just.
[00:35:06] Speaker B: Yep. Walking down my street. Go ahead.
[00:35:08] Speaker C: Right?
So it's like, you know, I have struggled to ask for help, and, you know, I have had a Persona where, oh, girl, I got it, or I can handle it, or I can do this all on my own, knowing that there's a part of me that's screaming like, and will never have in the past, would never reach out for help. Right. But in, like, it would start to seep in as resentment towards people.
It would start to seep in as resentment towards myself.
And it's just like, again, the expectation. I can't have expectations of others that I don't give myself. I can't live this life of being like, oh, I'm just this big, bad, independent baddie, which I am per. But there are some times where I'm not that every day. And the ego that I've been alternating in in the past, part of myself needed to be independent because something taught me that if I rely on me, no one else can let me down.
And so some of it.
[00:36:17] Speaker B: Wow. Just. Just me out. Okay.
[00:36:20] Speaker C: Yeah. Just.
[00:36:21] Speaker B: Just drag me. I'm.
[00:36:22] Speaker C: I'm just saying because that's. And that happens a lot. And what happens is that's just one example. And some of it does come from a wound. Our ego sometimes is formed out of wounds. But also, sometimes egos are just easier to have. They're just easier to live in because they are a Shield. It's no longer armor, it's shield. Shield means I'm avoiding that. Oh, I don't gotta deal with that. And I'm a default act like this. But, you know, and you might think it looks good and you can package it nice and you can dress a certain way, you can have an attitude, you can post all these quotes, but then on the inside, you. You're not like that. You don't feel like it's given fraudulent. And that's what happens when you have the imbalance of your own expectations.
And so, yeah, I mean, I. I know some of it is mis expectations of others, but dishonesty also happens when you're. You. You don't have certain expectations of yourself. Like, is this enough? Like, we all. We've all lied before, we fibbed before, we've had to finesse something before, or we've been finessed before and it's okay. But how do we react to the world and respond to that is truly how our ego is shaped. Do we want to walk around like we're hurt, or do we want to pretend like we're not hurting? Do we want to walk around like we're in charge? Or do we secretly need all the help we can get? You know, and so that's when you have internalized being dishonest as an okay way to be. And I'm going to post all this stuff that I don't have, take all these trips that I can't afford, or even if you can't afford them, and you out there, you're not having a good time for shit, you know, so social media has only exacerbated that, that fraudulent part that the ego can create. And again, I don't think ego is bad or ego really is meant to protect us. It is, it is, but it's. It's really us stepping into a part of ourselves that is more manageable, even if it's untrue to ourselves.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: You really, you really got it for me because I used to be.
My mom passed when I was 15 turning 16.
Thank you. And then my dad and I have had, like, a very strained relationship since I was 16. We didn't talk from the time I was 18 to like, almost 30.
And so for half of my life, I was like, okay, all I got is me. If I can't afford it, I don't deserve, like, all the things you tell yourself, like surviving a trauma.
So, like, I find it really hard to. I'm still learning how to, you know, ask for help.
Um, and so it's interesting. Like I was talking to a friend last night about like talking to me like childhood traumas of like what is like your love language and is that inadvertently tied to your childhood trauma?
And I was like, I think it might be because like mine is acts of service. Like if you help me in any way, I'm like, that's how you can show up. For me, I don't need things I don't need. Like it's like acts of service and like quality time. Like I just like that, like that those two things because I didn't have help after a certain time and my dad didn't really spend time with me. So like all these things of like in, you know, your childhood wombs and your ego is being developed and all these things I was like, oh, like, and then like talking to like what their love language is and that's like we unpack that. And like I think that's directly tied to your childhood too. Of like, you know, whatever you didn't get now is like what you need as a grownup.
And so like that level of honesty too. Of like just sitting with yourself and being able to like you're saying check, check your ego. Which again, like as a sociology person, ego isn't bad, it's just kind of gets developed and it is what it is and you move forward and you call yourself out and you work through it.
Of that too. Of like the, the level of honesty you're willing to just have with yourself, which I think a lot of people are afraid of. Because yes, as a person who is for the longest time like the perpetually single friend of who I. Again, I've been in therapy since I was 15, 16 years old. Like I've done a lot of work, I'm an only child, like did a lot of self work and figuring things out and obviously like I'm in therapy so I don't hurt anyone while I'm trying to heal.
And so like sitting with that and like obviously asking myself never ending questions because I'm a solo processor first and just thinking about that too of like the level of honesty you have to have with yourself, which I feel like a lot of people are afraid to do. Like I have friends who will just jump from relationship to relationship because they don't know who they are without a partner or they don't know how to be honest with themselves. So they're always out with friends because they can't sit with their silence, you know, just themselves. And they're like, I wish I could Be more like you. It's like, you can. It's a practice. Like, I didn't get to this level of honesty with myself because I just woke up one day and did it. There was, like, a whole process and trajectory and things I had to work through to be honest.
But there's that. That level of nuance, too, of like, as a person who is deeply honest, I always ask people, I used to say, like, do you want.
Do you want a friend? Do you want to support? Like, what kind of honesty are you looking for? Because I can be very honest. It just might not be in the package you need. So being very strategic with friends of, like, you know, I'm going to keep it real with you, but I need to know what you're open to receiving right now in this moment, because I got to check my delivery sometime.
[00:41:40] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, you do.
You do. And I say you is me.
[00:41:46] Speaker B: The collective.
[00:41:47] Speaker C: You collective. We do. Because I also think, you know, like I said, expression of honesty makes a difference as well at times.
And I had to learn that the hard way as well. I know I've come off very strong, strong to folks because I have been such a person to let so many things slide. So when I'm done letting shit slide, it's again, I empty the emotional clip on folks. And I've done that.
And I've always gone back to realize that that probably wasn't the way to be. But at the same time, it's very much a part of me that has had to internalize, you know, what benefit of the doubt looks like in order to maintain these relationships. Because if I. And we do that a lot, especially people who have wounds that stem from abandonment or these attachment styles that, you know, stem from areas where they have felt alone a lot, even you could be in a relationship and still feel alone. That is a chronic issue for people.
So you withstand so much to where you harbor and missed expectations, from somebody else to where there's one final straw, and then you finally got to say everything.
Everything comes off your chest or a good amount of it, or it just doesn't come out gracefully. Sometimes that happens. Sometimes when you have some shit to say, it's not going to come out packaged nicely. Yeah, but that's, I think, tied in with the wrath. I mean, I can have my own accountability for that. I'm not going to keep putting it on the collective, but I am going to say that that is something that a lot of black women who didn't have the voices before, a lot of that is coming out. A lot of that is coming out as anger. A lot of that is coming out as mistrust or betrayal.
A lot of that's coming out as a. Just flat out like, no, you got me fucked up and I need. And I need you to know why. And I'm finally ready to say it all, all the things. And so I think that there's a level to how we deliver honesty that is justified if it comes out kind of harsh sometimes. But that doesn't mean you mean to cause harm by, by saying how what you gotta say. But, you know, I am naturally a confrontational being and I don't do it, I don't do it to be mean or anything. And I know in the past that might have colored me incorrectly with my intentions and that's okay if it has, but because as much as I am rawr, I'm also very like, understanding and soft and compassionate and very, very chill and. But I do understand where a lot of my anger and resentment allowed me to view honesty as something that I thought needed to be weaponized. I thought maybe, hey, like, if I finally let this person know exactly how I feel, X or X is going to change.
And sometimes it don't, Sometimes it does and sometimes it don't. But I do think that, you know, time and place, time and place when it comes to more delicate things, because the truth does hurt to folks. But there's some truths that you can wrap perfectly and put a bow on it. Some people are still not going to receive it.
And so there's a part of me that's like, nah, let me just sprinkle a few, like, pieces of profanity and expletives on here so they can really hear what the I'm saying. But then it's like you, you know, you have to, that's where you have to check in with yourself and go, you gotta tell the truth. Just take a minute. Because truth, I don't. I saw a post the other day, was saying, like, you know, anger is a channel for truth telling and that if somebody says something to you out of anger, then they actually really mean it. And I know some people fight me on that. But you think about it. You think about it. Think about what people have said to you in anger. Think about what you've said in anger.
Where's the lie? And that's not to, you know, clock people who've been disrespected. Because if somebody disrespected you, called you out your name, did something foul, then, no, we can't account that as genuine, like, I'm receiving this as this person's truth. Some people are just being an asshole. But also think about some stuff that comes up out of anger. And I want for people to really notice that when they are getting upset, what truth telling looks like when you are at that point, do you want to save another because some people are just going to come out, or you need to save it for another time. Or like, do people say, like, you get drunk and when people are drunk, they tell the truth? Now, I believe that. I definitely believe that, without a doubt. Because, you know, your. Your brain is in a different type.
[00:46:47] Speaker B: Of mode, so she can't filter as better as she typically.
[00:46:51] Speaker C: Exactly. Versus when you're angry. Either way, you're not. You're not standing.
[00:46:56] Speaker B: You're not even healed. Yeah. So you're not in your neutral.
[00:47:00] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I think about emotions and how we deliver honesty and when it wasn't received because it wasn't packaged properly. But, you know, nonetheless, sometimes you. You have to let those things happen, too, to see what the expectations of that connection is after, if it's something that's going to maintain, you know, and if the expectations can be reset.
[00:47:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
Yeah. I was just having a conversation with a friend recently, and they were saying, like, they've just been so frustrated lately. They have a lot going on. They've been like, I have to sit and figure out where that frustration is. They go, well, actually, that anger is. Because they're like, frustration is a branch of anger. And I was like, oh, yeah, let's talk about those emotion wheels. Like the emotional wheel, like, where are you right now in that? And they're like, oh, I'm angry. Like, oh, and working through that, too. So I. I am typically a person who, like, will think through before I say something, but there are some moments I'm just like, I have to walk away from you because I'm angry. And I know I'm going to say something hurtful, and I don't want to, but I know you have made me so upset and so angry that I want to hurt you. And that's not who I am. But I'm like, I can name that. I know that right now.
And I've had people like, well, just like, let's just have it out. I'm like, it's not going to be productive. It's not going to get us anywhere. I would rather take the time and come back to you and have like, an actual, actual heartfelt, respectful conversation.
And I'm like, it takes a lot for me to get mad, though. So, like, one. Like you said earlier, like, once I get there and I'm there, I'm like, I gotta step away because I would love to continue a relationship with you. But if I say what I have to say right now, I don't think we'll ever bounce back because I go for the jugular, and I know that about myself. But, yeah, like you said, I think it comes from, you know, especially being a black woman in this country.
But, like, all the other things, like just being a black woman in general, like, the expectation, the societal expectations we have and, you know, the erasure we have of just like, in. In the. In the level that people will go to ignore the work and labor, emotionally, physical, spiritual, that we have done as a people, as a collective, of being a black woman, of like, we're expected to always save people. We're expected to be pleasant. We're expected to be like, all these expectations. And I tell people, like, I. I absolved myself of that years ago because I was just like, no matter what I do, it's never.
It's never going to be enough for anybody. It's never going to be good enough for, like. Like, all these things you have to realize of, like, as I told people at work, I'm not here to be liked. You don't have to understand me. You don't. We don't even have to get along, girl.
[00:49:33] Speaker C: We are here to do a job.
[00:49:34] Speaker B: And keep it pushing.
But it was so interesting to watch the women at one of my recent jobs follow over themselves to be liked by the men there. And I was like, I can't relate, girl.
[00:49:47] Speaker C: Like, I literally can't.
[00:49:49] Speaker B: Can't. Let me tell you. I was like, this is not for me. And my friends laugh me like, I love everyone. I'm like, but CIS hetero men right now. I'm like, y' all are really.
[00:49:58] Speaker C: You need to be clocked cool off of. Y' all so good.
[00:50:03] Speaker B: I'm like, you all try it.
And you. When I tell you with me, I'm not the one, don't try me, right? Like they say, don't try me, try Jesus. Because it ain't. It ain't gonna go well for you. But like you said, you've done the work, to be honest, because I look at, again, my. My white female counterparts who will just shrink themselves and deteriorate and just ignore their own voice and go with, like, this pack mentality to, yeah, be liked.
[00:50:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:50:33] Speaker B: And I'm like, that's a level of supremacy and control in the sot. Like the, the patriarchy working to, to silence you. And I'm like, that's not really for me.
[00:50:41] Speaker C: So, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go.
[00:50:43] Speaker B: I'm gonna just step back over here and, and prepare myself because I know I'm. I'm gonna be called difficult because I'm not, quote, agreeable versus just being like, no, maybe what you thought was wrong and just because I was the one brave enough to say something, you don't like that. And.
[00:50:59] Speaker C: But it's never.
[00:50:59] Speaker B: It's never that. It's always, I am wrong because I'm not agreeable. Like, no.
[00:51:04] Speaker C: Or being difficult or something, or trying to cause a stir.
[00:51:07] Speaker B: That whole like, angry black woman thing. I'm like, I'm not. Like you said at the very beginning, like, my tone has not changed. I have not yelled. I am not upset. I'm just sitting here asking a question to you before I jump off the cliff with the rest of you. Because I'm like, do we got parachutes? Like, I have questions. I don't like that.
[00:51:23] Speaker C: They don't. And that's again, expectations. They don't. I had.
And you know, I actually had. I had a. I had a supervisor think they could snap on me without me following up. And I didn't, I didn't. I didn't use that as a moment to go toe for toe, because I know myself so applauding you for your growth to know when you need to walk away, because that is something I am mastering now. Because there was a part of me that would not walk away. I would stand toe to toe. I'm like, okay, you trying to turn up, I could turn up too. And I'm like, no, no, no. That's what they want.
So let me, you know, find a way to self regulate, be calm.
And I had a.
So supervisor did that. And then I had a white colleague never before, never before contacted me for nothing, text my phone during my lunch break just saying, I am so sorry for what happened. And oh my God. And that was just so not right. And.
And I'm like, okay, we gonna see where was his energy at in the room? Well, say it like so. I'm like, so thank you for trying to text me. But also, okay, you know, but whatever. I think she thought she was doing something, but whatever. But you know, it's just the fact that other people in the room could see the mistreatment and their.
Them silencing their truth and their witnessing of it was more important.
Because they are okay with, you know, they're okay with the silence. They're okay with knowing that silence means protection in their world. If they're okay with saying, oh, damn, that sucked, but let me keep moving on just so I can keep my job. I don't want to ruffle. I don't want to get him.
[00:53:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:08] Speaker C: Like, if multiple people can say, damn, that was pretty fucked up.
And I'm the only black person in the room who had been fucked up.
But you can text me or talk to me on the side and like, hey, want to get a coffee, girl? I don't want your coffee. Get out my face.
[00:53:23] Speaker B: Right? I used to tell my counterparts of, like, don't apologize to me privately for what happened publicly.
[00:53:29] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:53:30] Speaker B: Because same energy. If you wanted to call me out in a group meeting, you apologize at a group meeting, right? Like, no, no. We ain't about to do no tiptoe on the back, Joanne. You better have that same level of chutzpah in your chest when you come say sorry to me.
[00:53:44] Speaker C: Exactly. So, you know, again, that's people, too. That's them. And those will be the same people who got hashtag all or Black Lives Matter in their captions and allied. Yeah, those are the same people. Like, oh, my God, I texted this black colleague. Make sure she was okay, Bitch, I'm not okay. How's that? So.
[00:54:04] Speaker B: So you wasted both of our texts.
[00:54:06] Speaker C: You wasted both of you. Lucky this ain't the nights and weekends, girly. You know my minutes reading.
[00:54:13] Speaker B: Hello. You're lucky they in charge of per text anymore, because what are you doing?
[00:54:17] Speaker C: What is this? But no, yeah, it's. And it's a lot of people walking around with that. It's a lot of people walking around with that internalized sense of self. And people are living fraudulently. Especially these people who call themselves allies. They probably have the worst of the personality issues. And I'm not coming for people who have personality disorders. I'm not. But you really have to walk around pretending to care about something.
Like, that's a different level of ego trip. It is. Because you don't. You don't have to prove it to me.
I. I didn't. You know, like.
And I think that that that's where we're at and why social media has always been so difficult for me.
My brand. I. I don't know if this is the first time I'm saying it out loud, but my brand is faceless. Purposely, like, I don't need you to pay attention to me. Pay attention to the stuff.
[00:55:10] Speaker B: Right.
[00:55:11] Speaker C: Look at the content, look at the botanicals. You don't need to look at me. Right.
But with that said, it's like I.
I've tried to make my brand actually stand for authenticity because I understand that all of us have been silent before about something. All of us have spoken out about something. All of us have told the truth about something. All of us have told a lie about something. My goal is to not. We are in such a pick a side type of world right now. Mine is. My brand is about learning who you are either way. Like, regardless of what path you walk, if you ever pick a side, yada, yada, what or what, what? Be it, be it. You know, whatever you're into. Community work. You need to know who you are before you step out here and try to convince the world you're something you're not. Because there's too many people walking around here like that. And that's why people are getting hurt. But that's why the work's not getting done.
That's why these places aren't being sustained. Because a lot of these places that are crumbling, Let me tell you something, they're all ran by people.
Yeah. The administration can change so much, but these are still people behind these things. So it's just like you need to know who you are in the grand scheme of things. And so my work, in my. At least how I kind of try to promote the things I do is finding ways for you to sit with your damn self. Because like you said, people will not.
They will. And I've met people. I've met people well into 40s, 50s, 60s year old.
They don't want to sit with themselves.
Some of it is shame.
Some of it is fear of judgment.
Some of it is fear of not being accepted. Some of it is just flat out, you're just like. You have crispy energy. Like you're you. Just you. Something about you was not right. Something is stale. Something needs to. You need. You need some water. Pour it on your life. Cleanse your soul. You're giving crunchy.
So it's some of that. And I try to make sure that anything I'm part of is allowing people to check themselves.
Because especially. And you know, I'm gonna, you know, I.
Shameless plug.
My brand is the Evon. I make herbal medicine. And I have a guided journal for people to learn more about their egos.
And I think that's something that I've had to learn not even as an entrepreneur, but just being in the industry of wellness Hella fraudulent.
So fraudulent to where it makes me have secondhand embarrassment of some of these things. And I'm not coming for nobody bad. But I am saying that wellness, because it has this over saturation of inauthenticity and buy your way to healing or get this crystal or sage, this sage or just, you know, touch grass. Girl, you cannot be out here selling this to folks like, this is not wellness. You are packaging ideologies that don't work for everybody, especially people who are black, indigenous, so forth. There's just this really, really toxic kind of wave people have been riding within the wellness community. And I strive so much to not be that. I am so much. I want you to find yourself. And if my stuff works for you, great. But like, find yourself first. And I feel like the wellness industry wants you to find yourself through their stuff.
[00:59:04] Speaker B: Million dollar company. Yeah.
[00:59:06] Speaker C: It's like, no, no, no, let me help you with the tools so you can work with yourself and then come back versus the other way around. And then it makes people that much more un. Untrusting of the things that are actually valuable. And people have spent so much time researching and going to take classes or become certified and master practitioners. There's valid people and professionals out there, but you got always the people that are going to scheme, scam and fake what wellness and healing can be packaged as.
And it's turning folk away. And it makes me very sad. And I just wish that as we are trying to find our own truths, that there's not all these distractions on how to get there, because that impacts us too.
And for a lot of people, it can undo some things that they've been working on.
[01:00:02] Speaker B: Well, I'm gonna have to have you back. Just talk about the health and wellness industry because I have a friend who's just finished getting her degree in like, oh my gosh, nutritional health and everything. So like, she's like paying a lot of attention obviously to like everything with like RFK that's happening.
And so we'll just text because she's like, I will. I will have like a healthy spiral with her about, like, because I. I'm like, I'm a politics nerd. So she's like, I know you've watched this in a way that my other friends have not. Can we just have like 10 minutes and like the conversations we have because of like the industry itself, but also like, with everything happening with rfk taking, quote, becoming, oh my God, make America healthy again of just like. And watching the white supremacist practices that are slipping in because like all these white girls now are like losing it. And I'm like, that's a.
[01:00:50] Speaker C: That's another topic for another day. It sure is.
Who I was like, yeah.
[01:00:55] Speaker B: Are you all okay? The answer is no.
[01:00:58] Speaker C: No.
[01:01:00] Speaker B: She'S.
But yeah. So wait, sorry, let me focus back into our topic. It is. I could talk to you for forever. So. But it's. We've been at an hour and we have, we have our time and I need to be respectful of our time.
I'll be sure to link everything we talked about in the show notes today so people can find you. I will find that YouTube video and put that in the show notes.
And at the end of every episode, I ask a sort of final question. Palette cleanser.
It's a two first, you get to decide which part you want to answer. But the question is, what is the best advice you've ever been given? Or what's a piece of advice you'd give to your younger self?
[01:01:39] Speaker C: I guess the piece of advice I'd like to give to everybody is stay ready.
I know that could be very overwhelming to hear, but stay ready and ready could mean just having extra water bottles in your room, in your car.
Stay ready could be just, you know, keep an emergency bag full of clothes. And I don't mean to sound so nihilistic or anything, but anything. Stay ready as in make a list. Make that list of groceries you were supposed to buy.
You know, call your parents or your siblings. Make a note to do it. Do.
Do so many things that when life kind of sweeps you away, you never forget what matters to you. You never lose out on a moment because you weren't prepared. You never get caught slipping anyway because that's me. Catch me slipping. And, you know, just being able, especially if you're an entrepreneur, we have no choice but to stay ready. Even if it's not last minute shit. Do your best to plug yourself. Even when you feel like you know your your to do list is done.
Try one more thing if you can, and then rest.
[01:03:00] Speaker B: That's it for this week's episode of the Tea with Bree. Be sure to follow the podcast on Instagram at the Tea with Bri. Send me an email at the tea with bri gmail.com or visit the website thetothbrodcast.com you can find me your host, Brianna Jenkins on Instagram at Brianna Jenkins. Don't forget to rate, review and follow on Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. A special thanks to Mama Duke for our theme music and I will catch you next time. Bye.
